Portside

On my final day as The New York Times correspondent in Brazil, I interviewed the nation’s president.

It wasn’t designed that way; I had been asking for an interview for four years. It just so happened that as I prepared to depart for a new post in Mexico, diplomatic relations between the United States and Brazil ruptured.

This month, President Trump threatened to impose 50 percent tariffs on Brazilian imports in an extraordinary bid to intervene in the criminal proceedings against Brazil’s right-wing former president, Jair Bolsonaro.

President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva of Brazil then fired back, saying Brazil’s sovereignty will not be threatened.

Brazil’s president demands respect

Mr. Lula says Brazil will not be pushed around by President Trump.

Now, with Mr. Trump’s tariff deadline looming on Friday, Mr. Lula and Mr. Trump still had not spoken. So Mr. Lula agreed to sit down with me, as he explained, to speak to the American public.

Here are edited excerpts from our conversation.

What is your message for President Trump?

I want to tell Trump that Brazilians and Americans do not deserve to be victims of politics, if the reason President Trump is imposing this tax on Brazil is because of the case against former President Bolsonaro. The Brazilian people will pay more for some products, and the American people will pay more for other products. And I think the cause does not merit this. Brazil has a Constitution, and the former president is being tried with a full right to a defense.

Why haven’t you called and explained that to him?

What’s preventing it is that no one wants to talk. I have asked to make contact. I designated my vice president, my agriculture minister, my economy minister, so that each can talk to their counterpart to understand what the possibility for conversation was. So far, it hasn’t been possible.

Just so you know the timeline, we held 10 meetings on trade with the U.S. Department of Commerce. On May 16, we sent a letter asking for a response from the United States. The response we received was through President Trump’s website, announcing the tariffs on Brazil.

So I hope that civility returns to the Brazil-U.S. relationship. The tone of his letter is definitely that of someone who doesn’t want to talk.

Many other heads of state have avoided criticizing President Trump publicly. But you’ve been openly criticizing him, even calling him an emperor. Do you fear this could worsen things?

I don’t. There’s no reason to be afraid. I am worried, obviously, because we have economic interests, political interests, technological interests. But at no point will Brazil negotiate as if it were a small country up against a big country. Brazil will negotiate as a sovereign country.

In politics between two states, the will of neither should prevail. We always need to find the middle ground. This is achieved not by puffing out your chest and shouting about things you can’t deliver, nor by bowing your head and simply saying ‘amen’ to whatever the United States wants.

So what happens if the tariffs take effect on Friday?

Do you remember when we were about to turn from 1999 to 2000, and there was worldwide panic that the computer systems were going to crash? Nothing happened. So I’m not saying that nothing will happen, but I am saying that we have to wait for D-Day to know.

You’ve said that what Mr. Trump is requesting — an end to Mr. Bolsonaro’s case — is not negotiable. So what can you negotiate on?

I think it’s important for President Trump to consider: If he wants to have a political fight, then let’s treat it as a political fight. If he wants to talk trade, let’s sit down and discuss trade. But you can’t mix everything together.

I can’t just send a letter to Trump saying, ‘Listen, Trump, Brazil won’t do such-and-such if you don’t do such-and-such with Cuba.’ I can’t do that — out of respect for the United States, for diplomacy, and for the sovereignty of each nation.

So, that’s what I hope he reflects on. I honestly don’t know what Trump has heard about me. But if he got to know me, he’d know that I’m 20 times better than (Bolsonaro).

What is your strategy if the tariffs take effect?

I’m not going to cry over spilled milk.

If the United States doesn’t want to buy something of ours, we are going to look for someone who will.

We have an extraordinary trade relationship with China. If the United States and China want to have a Cold War, we won’t accept it. I have no preference. I have an interest in selling to whoever wants to buy from me — to whoever pays more.

Not even my worst enemy could say that Lula doesn’t like to negotiate. I learned politics by negotiating. I have nothing against Trump’s ideology. Trump is an issue for the American people to deal with. They voted for him. End of story. I’m not going to question the sovereign right of the American people, because I don’t want them questioning mine.

Ana Ionova and Lis Moriconi contributed reporting.

[Jack Nicas is the Brazil bureau chief for The Times, leading coverage of much of South America.]